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How to Successfully Negotiate with Narcissists per Rebecca Zung, Ep #231

What is a narcissist? How do you negotiate with someone who’s a narcissist? Can you negotiate with a narcissist? Rebecca Zung—an expert on negotiating with narcissists—shares a simple formula that can help you control the negotiation process to get to a desirable outcome. Don’t miss this fascinating episode of Negotiations Ninja!

Outline of This Episode

  • [1:34] Who is Rebecca Zung?
  • [3:27] What is a narcissist?
  • [6:30] How to know you’re dealing with a narcissist
  • [8:00] How to change your negotiation strategy
  • [13:13] Rebecca’s S.L.A.Y. Program
  • [21:06] How to get help with your negotiation

What narcissism boils down to

According to Rebecca, a diagnosed narcissist (with Narcissistic Personality Disorder) exhibits the seven traits outlined in the DSM-5 (1% of the population). A few of those traits include magical thinking, expectations of special behavior, no boundaries, etc. But Rebecca distills narcissism down into two characteristics:

  1. They have no inner sense of value, so they extrapolate it from other people or situations through compliments, adulation, money, prestige, etc. Or, they get it from degrading, devaluing, controlling, and intimidating other people.
  2. They do not empathize with others. Narcissism is a continuum. As a narcissist gets further down the path, they feel more like they don’t have value and care less about other people.

Rebecca wrote the book “Negotiate Like You M.A.T.T.E.R.” because all people want to feel seen, heard, and know that they matter. It’s part of being human—it’s not narcissistic.

How to know you’re dealing with a narcissist

Rebecca believes that you’ll inherently know when you’re dealing with a narcissist, especially if they’re toward the grandiose end of the spectrum. If they feel that you’re not “for” them, you’ll know. How? If you’re against them, you become public enemy #1. They will do whatever they need to take you down—including fighting dirty.

Nothing is too low for a narcissist unless they think they’ll get caught. Malignant narcissists don’t care if they get caught, grandiose narcissists believe they can get away with it, and covert narcissists tend to be passive-aggressive. Their whole purpose in life is to take you down. There’s no hiding a narcissist.

How to change your negotiation strategy

If you’re dealing with a narcissist, how do you change your approach in a negotiation?

In a normal negotiation—assuming that you’re dealing with a “reasonably prudent person”—you are looking to come to a mutually beneficial resolution. That’s how normal people think. But Rebecca points out that narcissists are looking for narcissistic supply. They need to “feed” their desire for adulation, recognition, praise, etc. If you don’t pour yourself into them, they’ll make your life miserable.

They’ll lie about you, move goalposts, and use the court system as a sword. Even if you agree to something, they’ll revise it or rescind it. They’re getting narcissistic supply from controlling you and jerking you around. They think they’re getting you to respect them because you’re afraid of them. They aren’t looking for a resolution because they’ll lose their supply.

You can’t think that there’s anything you can give them to make them happy. It’s a fundamental flaw in thinking that you can’t embrace. You’re looking for resolution—but there’s nothing you can give them. Well, almost nothing. Listen to the whole episode to hear Rebecca share the ingenious way to negotiate with narcissists.

Resources & People Mentioned

Connect with Rebecca Zung

Connect With Mark

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Throwback Thursday with Keld Jensen, Ep #230

To play the game of negotiation effectively, you have to know the rules of the game. What is the role of trust? How do you develop it? How—and why—do you verbalize it? In this Throwback Thursday episode of Negotiations Ninja, Keld Jensen talks about why trust in negotiations isn’t just for procurement and sales experts. It’s for everyone who develops relationships in their professional and personal lives. Don’t miss an episode that dives deep into the importance of trust in negotiations!

Developing Trust In Negotiations, Ep #76

 

The 4 Levels of Talking with Someone According to Dr. Mark Goulston, Ep #229

Dr. Mark Goulston is back by popular demand! In this episode of Negotiations Ninja, I chat with Dr. Goulston about becoming a better listener—which includes learning how to talk with people. Dr. Mark shares that there are four levels of talking to someone. You can talk over them, at them, to them, or with them. How do you know which you’re doing? What should you do instead? Learn more in this episode!

Outline of This Episode

  • [1:26] Dr. Mark Goulston is back by popular demand!
  • [4:20] The HUVA exercise will change everything
  • [8:34] What if you don’t add value to the conversation?
  • [10:24] The persuasion cycle: don’t move too fast
  • [12:50] The four levels of talking to someone
  • [23:16] How to delegate effectively
  • [27:46] How to get other people to excel emotionally
  • [29:35] You must adjust your tone for each person
  • [34:44] Learn more about Dr. Mark Goulston

The 4 levels of talking with someone

There are four levels of talking to someone. You can talk over them, at them, to them, or with them. How do you know which you’re doing? Dr. Goulston believes it’s all in their body language.

When someone talks over you, it’s insulting. When someone talks “at” you, it’s intimidating. You may hunker down to protect yourself. If someone is talking to you, you nod from the neck up. If someone talks with you, you lean in. You want more. Unfortunately, very few people feel talked with.

What is the counterparty listening for?

If you’re doing B2B selling or negotiating, many B2B buyers are listening for something that will get them a raise, a promotion, or a win. They’re also listening for something that could get them fired. You must be aware of the problems, the opportunities, but, more importantly, what they’re listening for.

In B2C sales, a customer or client is looking for an experience. Dr. Goulston emphasizes that “They want to move from feeling lousy to feeling better. From feeling stupid to feeling smart. From feeling weak to feeling powerful. From feeling confused to feeling confident.” If you can be aware of that, it will move you toward talking with them.

Talking with someone increases listening

If you’re not talking with someone, they may not be listening. Once you talk with them, the propensity for listening increases substantially. When you talk with someone great at communicating, you feel like the most important person in the world. The conversation is deep and intense, and you leave feeling understood.

A mentor of Dr. Goulston’s—Warren Bennis—used to say, “Try to be more interested than interesting. Try to be more fascinated than fascinating…” One of Dr. Goulston’s favorite quotes from Warren was, “Boredom occurs when we fail to make the other person interesting.”

Are you a person that people enjoy?

People have to figure out if they can trust someone. Is he going to be a jerk? Does he really care about me? Dr. Goulston has been fortunate to have eight mentors, the last of which was Larry King. What Dr. Goulston valued the most about his mentors was their respect, their wisdom, but most of all, they enjoyed being with him. He was able to put a smile on their face. They spent time enjoying each other’s company.

Have you ever started by just exchanging information with someone? Then as the conversation unfolds, you realize that “I could become friends with this person?” Dr. Goulston believes this person passes the “inter-subjective moment” or “the inter-being moment.” The inter-being is the space between two people as they’re communicating. When you feel like you enjoy each other, feel empathized with, and feel protected, the inter-being goes up. If they feel you’re being dismissive or salesy, the inter-being goes down.

In the business world, there seems to be an impatience to get to that level in a relationship. But Dr. Goulston emphasizes that good negotiation is a function of good listening. If you can get the listening part right, everything else becomes easier.

Do yourself a favor and pick up Dr. Goulston’s book, “Just Listen.” Follow him online, listen to his show, and dig deep into communication. For more information on how to listen well, listen to the whole episode!

Resources & People Mentioned

Connect with Dr. Mark Goulston

Connect With Mark

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Throwback Thursday with Matthias Schranner, Ep #228

In this throwback episode of Negotiations Ninja, we revisit episode #90 with Matthias Schranner—former hostage negotiator and founder of the Schranner Negotiation Institute. We talk all about the mistakes that are commonly made in negotiations, including avoiding deadlocks. How can a deadlock actually change the outcome of a negotiation? Listen to this throwback to learn more!

Deadlock in Negotiation Should Be Your Starting Point, Ep #90

Michael Reddington’s Forensic Interviewing Method, Ep #227

What is forensic interviewing? How can it be applied to the enterprise sales and procurement process? In this episode of Negotiations Ninja, Michael Reddington—an interrogation, sales, and negotiation expert—will talk all about interrogations, listening, questioning and how they intersect with sales, negotiation, and procurement. Don’t miss it!

Outline of This Episode

  • [1:32] Learn about Michael Reddington + what he does
  • [3:15] The baggage that comes with the term “interrogation”
  • [5:18] The end goal of an interrogation conversation
  • [7:06] Where does the interview process fit?
  • [10:17] What questions to ask someone being evasive
  • [15:53] The tension between working the deal and pushing it
  • [18:11] Do certain questions elicit a better response?
  • [23:13] Tools that Michael uses as a go-to
  • [24:53] Are you building trust, rapport, or both?
  • [28:08] Story-telling in the forensic interview process
  • [32:12] How to connect with Michael Reddington

The baggage that comes with the term “interrogation”

“Certified Forensic Interviewer” is simply a designation, like an accountant achieving a CPA. It proves the highest level of expertise and mastery in the field of interrogation.

There are times when Michael uses the term, and it spikes interest. Other times, he jokes that you’d think he just splashed them in the face with a bucket of ice water. When it comes to conversations about his career and how it applies to business, he uses analogies to help cross the bridge, so people understand the connection.

He believes the bottom line is that people perceive how you communicate with them as proof of whether or not you respect them. In any conversation, you don’t want to start by picking a fight—especially if you need to get information from someone.

If you need information and someone else has it, they’re in control of the conversation. They control when to share, how much to share, and why to share. You have to keep that in mind as you choose your approach.

The end goal of an interrogation conversation

In the investigative sense, the end goal of an interview is to get the truth, whatever it may be. It isn’t to get a confession or an admission. To get to the truth, you must inspire a sense of commitment in someone to share that truth. If you use techniques where someone says, “Okay, whatever, I’ll just tell you,” you may not get the whole truth. They may change their story as soon as they walk out of the room.

Your goal is to communicate with them in a way where they can save face and commit to sharing the truth. Whether you’re engaged in negotiations, sales, leading, coaching, or mentoring, you don’t want compliance. Compliance is temporary, is accompanied by resentment, and it’s only a short-term tactical win that could cause long-term strategic problems down the road. It’s about creating commitment over compliance.

Where does the interview process fit?

The interview process begins before the conversation starts and continues after it’s completed.

Michael starts the process with preparation. In the same way he’d prepare for an interview or interrogation, he uses the same techniques to prepare for business conversations. He focuses on the key phrases he’s always lived by, such as “illustrate before you investigate” and “questions can be perceived as invitations or attacks.”

You have to take a strategic long view and use the same persuasive elements. You use situationally aware observation, ask great questions, move people from resistance to commitment, and even follow up after. The only way to prove you listen and care is to follow up after the interaction has concluded. The approaches line up quite well between interrogations and enterprise sales.

Is the goal to build trust, rapport, or both?

In Michael’s opinion, trust is heavily reliant on rapport. The more you can build authentic rapport, the more you can increase someone’s trust level. But if you get a recommendation to work with someone from someone you trust, you may trust that person right off the bat. If you do your research and believe someone is the best of the best, you might come in with some initial trust built as well. One can exist without the other.

However, Michael believes that the harder you try and build rapport, the more it negatively impacts trust. If someone feels like you’re “trying” too hard to be their friend, it sets off bells and whistles. They question why you’re trying so hard.

For example, Michael had a Zoom call with someone and saw a plethora of sports paraphernalia on their wall. It would be a temptation for a lot of people to see that and immediately say, “Hey, I see you’re a fan of…” As soon as you do that, people know you’re trying to build rapport. Michael emphasizes to “Slow your roll.”

This particular person was from Kansas City, which just so happens to house one of Michael’s favorite BBQ places: Arthur Bryant’s. This person asked a question that allowed Michael to illustrate a conversation he had at Arthur Bryant with someone he was training. It created something they had in common that unfolded naturally, versus dumping everything he knew about Kansas City at the beginning of the conversation. It’s far more strategic.

Many sales and procurement people don’t know how to weave stories into their conversations. You have to be interesting and compelling, so people want to interact with you. So how do you tell better stories? What kinds of questions do you ask? How do you ask them? Learn more in this fascinating episode with Michael Reddington.

Resources & People Mentioned

Connect with Michael Reddington

Connect With Mark

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