Folks, Doug Sandler may be the nicest guy that I've ever had on this show, but I guess that kind of makes sense because he is the author of Nice Guys Finish First, and the host of the Nice Guy's on Business podcast. Being the son of the famous Dave Sandler of Sandler Selling Systems, Doug is no stranger to sales and sales systems, but has developed something completely different in his Invest, Inspire, and Execute system.
Doug and I talk about sales, we talk about negotiations, and we talk about what it takes to be a nice guy in business and a nice guy in negotiations. Having Doug on the show was a real pleasure.
Guest: Doug Sandler
Mark: Hello, Doug, how are you?
Doug: Hey, Mark, I'm doing great. Thanks for having me on the show. I always wanted to be a ninja, so I'm looking forward to being a ninja here.
Mark: We aim to teach people how to be negotiation ninjas, so hopefully we can do that with your stuff as well because I think it really relates to everything that we teach, which is ultimately to try and bring some humanity into negotiations and teach people how to be better negotiators. With the book that you've written, nice guys finish first, and the show that you have nice guys on business podcast, I think it really really lines up well, but for those people that don't know who you are maybe you could give us a bit of a personal background and how you started on your journey.
Doug: Sure, I would love to. Before I even get started, I thought literally I bought my Chinese stars, I'm not going to actually be a real ninja? I have to be a negotiation ninja? I can't hurt anybody here?
Mark: You can't hurt anybody here, sorry.
Doug: This is trouble right out of the gate. Let me put these dangerous things and these nun chucks, let me put these down. Hold on a second, I don't want to hurt myself. I appreciate you having me on the show. About 47 years old I was at a crossroads, I was trying to figure out, I'm meeting with my financial planner trying to figure out what the next step in my life was. I'd spent the last 30 years as a deejay, not a cool deejay like the guy that was at the clubs, but a mobile deejay, and I'd built a fairly significant entertainment business, our company doing about 700 or 800 functions a year, so it was a nice-size company, but I kind of ran out of that spark of love of doing what I'm doing. In sitting with my financial planner, he said just look for an opportunity. He didn't know what it was going to be. Just look for it.
It took me about six months to find that opportunity. I was sitting at an industry trade show and conference, and saw a guy speak from stage, and I was always the guy in the back of the room listening to speakers because I always knew better than everybody that was up on the stage, as we all do. We all have that ego when we've been doing stuff for 30 years, but something he said from stage, not exactly what he was saying but how he was saying it, and that spark of inspiration from this guy named Ryan Estes led me to believe that I could be a professional speaker also, silly thought there for a moment. I ran up to him at the end of his speech, and I asked him all sorts of questions about becoming a professional speaker. He'd given me his speaking coach's name because he was not a speaker or trainer that was training other speakers, he just shared his message.
I hired Jane Atkinson, his speaking coach, about six weeks later, and about ten or twelve weeks after working with her I discovered that I was going to not only need to be a speaker but I was going to need to be a writer too because all speakers have books. I had no idea how to write a book, and at that point I had barely even written love notes to my wife, so I was like okay, how am I going to write a 200-page book? In writing the book, it was told to me that I needed to write it quickly too because if I don't write it quickly it's going to draw out for years. We set a goal for the next 20 weeks we're going to write ten pages a week, and I wrote the book.
In addition to trying to write the book and developing a marketing plan and a platform, and a speaking plan and a marketing plan for my speech, I needed a channel to promote it, and that's how I started the podcasting world as well. Nice guys on business podcast got borne out of my speaking and my writing business. We are now 600 episodes in basically of that run, and it's crazy where your business comes from because I was just going to use the podcast as a platform to share my speaking message in my book, and what ultimately developed was an entire business from the podcast.
Right now the podcast is the sole source of business for all of my channels, speaking, writing, online training. We have a podcast production company as a result of it. All of these things came within the last five years, and just as a result of setting one goal, and that goal was I need to figure out what that next step in my life was going to be. So in a nutshell that's kind of my journey and my story over the last five or six years.
Mark: I love that. You guys are consistently ranked top five business podcasts on iTunes and Google Play, isn't that right?
Doug: I would love to say iTunes, but pardon the expression but we just really don't like iTunes. We don't promote at iTunes. We're on Overcast, we're the third ranked business show, one two or three, in the business category on Overcast, which is IOS's, one of their outside of iTunes, their most prolific podcast app. We just haven't had a lot of success with iTunes only because we seem to be a small fish in a very big pond. The way that I've always run my career is that I'd much rather be a big fish in a little pond rather than be a little fish in a big pond. We really don't even focus on iTunes. If someone says we're on iTunes, we throw them over to Overcast and say hey, you really should try this podcast out.
We have had a lot of success over the last 600 episodes. I think it's something like 1.4 or 1.5 million downloads at this point, and we're excited to be on this rollercoaster ride and journey right now.
Mark: I'm an avid listener of the show. I love what you and Strickland are doing. It's super awesome to see the success that you guys have had. It's really great. A lot of what I try to do is bring to listeners an outside perspective from people who are practitioners. A lot of the information on negotiation sales procurement, that whole area is really theoretical, and while it's fantastic a lot of it isn't directly applicable on stuff that people can take away right now in their daily lives.
I recently read your book, Nick Guys Finish First. I want to discuss that a little bit, and how it might relate to sales, and the interplay between sales and negotiations. What is the nice guy formula, and how do nice guys ultimately finish first?
Doug: Sure. I appreciate that. Let me answer your second question first because there's a quote, I think it's in chapter one, from a comedian who is no longer on this Earth, but his name was Gary Shandling, and the quote was something like if you don't think nice guys finish first, you don't know where the finish line is. I say that because I think ultimately you have to decide yourself what finishing first means. If finishing first to you means making the sale regardless of what the outcome is, regardless of how you've treated the other person, for me that wasn't a good way to finish first. Finishing first for me was negotiating or making a sale, closing a deal, whatever it is that you're working on with another person, interaction with a person, so that you both arrive at the solution together, and you arrive at it so that you're both happy. I think ultimately the shrewd negotiators say I win you lose, and for me a great negotiation is I win you win. We both win together, and if we can't arrive there then I don't feel like we have a solution that's of value.
That's the answer to the second part of your question. What systems are involved? It's really quite simple. I have a three step system of invest, inspire, execute. First it's invest energy, time, resources in a client, a friend, a relationship, making sure that ultimately this is a good relationship and of value to you. The best way to know that is to invest time and your energy into that relationship.
If you can second step inspire them to take action, meaning that the words you're saying will help them move from where they are to where you hope that they will be or where they hope that they will be, if you've inspired them that is wonderful, and you've done a great job as a part of that, and part of that is negotiation.
The last step is execute, and it's not just execute a plan well to their satisfaction, it's over delivering on what you promise, it's executing excellently, it's bringing to the table everything and then some. Invest, inspire, and execute is this three part nice guy system.
Ultimately what it comes down to though, and I'm sure we'll talk about this in a few moments is how you actually do that, how do you invest, how do you inspire, how do you execute, what does that mean, and how do you actually carryout those steps? There's a five-step process. I'm a really systems guy because if I don't have a system I can't measure success of failure. Failure might be just not making a sale, and I don't think that's a good way to measure failure. I think if you learn a lesson there's a win even if you don't make a deal come together. We can talk about the five steps at some point, but I just want to share those three steps, invest, inspire, and execute, with you.
Mark: Yeah, I love that. I think the invest inspire execute system that you have is simple but effective, and I love that about great systems in that they don't need to be overly complicated, but I find that the most simple and less complicated systems are probably some of the hardest to implement because it's difficult to take something that what seems to be easy and apply it to our daily lives in sales and business because a lot of people think that like I said at the beginning of the show people take the humanity out of sales, they take the humanity out of negotiation, and one of the things that I love that you said in the book is never forget that ultimately you're dealing with people.
We forget that. We forget that sometimes we're actually dealing with another person who's got other things going on in their lives in the background that we don't know about. Let's dive into the invest, inspire, and execute system a little bit more. What is the five-step process within that, and how do we implement that system into our daily lives in sales?
Doug: The easiest way to put together a system, or the easiest way to follow a system is to break it into actionable steps. As you said, the theory of invest, inspire, execute is a great theory, but until you actually have what does that mean and how do I do that ... These five steps were the ways that I better learned to understand the habits that I was developing through the course of my workday, and they're really simple steps. This could apply to whether you're in sales or you're in accounting, it doesn't really matter. Step number one is return all your phone calls. It sounds so simple, but yet I can't tell you how many times I'm delivering a keynote speech or even a session speech and I ask people how many of you have been on the receiving end of a lack of returned phone call, and everybody raises their hands. I didn't get a phone call return from John Smith earlier today.
I say how does that make you feel, and everybody throws out words like made me feel unimportant, not a priority, made me feel like ignored. I said okay, now keep your hands up, and those of you that have ever not returned a phone call raise your hands. Ultimately those hands stay up, and I say you just told me when you don't get a return phone call it makes you feel unimportant, not a priority, not in the thought process, ignored, and you're doing that to someone else. Doesn't that make them feel the same way? Return your phone calls, return your emails, be on time every time. I don't want to mean just glance over it or go over it quickly to return your emails, but it's the same as returning a phone call. If you don't return somebody's email, they don't even know that you even read it. If you return an email and they asked four questions and you only answer two, you know they're going to ask the other two anyway. You may as well do it all at one time.
Return your phone calls, return your emails, be on time every time. The worst thing that you could possibly be is disrespectful of somebody's time. By being on time you're showing you respect their time. Be on time every time. Over promise and under deliver has got to be something that goes away. Number four, exceed expectations. There's a sign on my computer that says set unrealistic expectations and then exceed them. Those four so far, return phone calls, return emails, be on time every time, over promise and under deliver, has got to go away, set unrealistic expectations and exceed them is number four.
Number five, the one that I think is most important one is reach out twice a day to people that are in your life, not the same person twice a day, but just reach out to people in your life to say hello, hope you're doing well, don't discuss business if it's a business relationship, just reach out to them show them that you're a human being that actually wants to communicate other than just what's in this relationship for me from a sales perspective or negotiation perspective. Those five steps are the things that have totally changed and transformed my life, but it's been that way from the very beginning, and as long as you understand that those five behaviors that I call my nice guy 30, five steps within 30 days that will re instill and change the habits that you are working towards, those are the things that will make the difference between good relationships and great relationships, those five simple steps.
Mark: Awesome. I think a lot of people forget about long term customer success, and they think about the immediate sale and they think about the immediate negotiation, and what is this next sale going to do for either my commission or my career or whatever it is, and you give a story about a guy in the book who forgive me I can't remember his name but he used to set breakfast meetings with his clients.
Doug: Pulling something from the back of the book. I don't even remember his name either, but I think I will. I think it was Ron, the carpet man that lived by me. Okay, go ahead.
Mark: Yeah. Essentially this guy would set up breakfast meetings with his clients and he would never discuss business. It would just be about developing the relationship. He would never press the business issue, and only talk about it if that person brought up business, and then would quickly try and return back to developing the personal relationship. That's something that struck me that I found awesome in the book was when you talked to those people they said things like this guy understands me, he gets me, I feel like he cares about me.
Mark: I know I'm a client, but I feel like he cares. I think that's something that we miss a lot of, is caring. There's a sales trainer out of the United States, and I'm based out of Canada, there's a sales trainer based out of the United States, and his name is Anthony Anerino, awesome guy, love what he does, and one of the things that he teaches is you actually have to care. You have to care about your customer, you have to care about their long term client success. Why do we have to care?
Doug: We have to care because isn't that what human beings do? Human beings we're caring machines. We need to care for the people that are in our lives because that's what's important to them. It's important for us to care about the things that are going on in people's lives. How can we go through life as a business machine? That doesn't meet our needs. We need to care about people because that's the significant part of building a relationship, and relationships are what business is all about, not business.
Mark: Yeah. Awesome. I keep referring to the book, but I'm a fan. There's another thing you have in there you talk about PR, and you don't talk about public relations, you talk about people in relationships.
Mark: That's such a great little shift in mind set because we often think of sales as PR in the traditional sense, but not necessarily people and relationships. What are some of the negotiation lessons now that you've developed this system on nice guys finish first, and you've got your nice guys business podcast, what are some of the negotiation lessons that you've learned from having people on the show, leaders on the show that you've interviewed that others can learn from to achieve success?
Doug: I think one of the biggest things that you have to focus on is the person and not the business. I think if there's one thing, and I don't know if people stack it this way because the show is called the nice guys on business podcast ... I mean if you've listened to the show for any length of time, if anybody in your community is also a listener to our show, you'll realize we very rarely talk about business. We just talk about life in general. It's not rarely that we talk about business, but we really do everything with a human being sense of focus. Everything that we do in life is about the relationships that we build.
It's so important to build your network. It's so important to build the relationships in your life. You can take whatever skill set that you have if you focus on human beings and you take those great skills that you have in building your business from a business perspective and you just put those aside for a moment, and work more towards your interpersonal skills, you will discover that you will be able to take that same skill set and apply it to any business that you work in and succeed in it. It really is all about, negotiation is all about the relationship that you've built with the person that's directly across the table from you.
Mark: Yeah. I find that a lot of people get confused between being a nice guy and also being a pushover sometimes. Maybe we can dive into that a little bit because I want to talk about that. Being a nice guy doesn't necessarily mean that you're a pushover, and it also doesn't mean that you shouldn't be challenging your customers or challenging in a negotiation to get the best deal that you can get for both parties. Let's dive into that. There's a book called the Challenger Sale by Matt Dixon and brent Adamson, awesome book, and they talk about what it takes to be a consultative and advisory salesperson, essentially.
One of the things that you talk about in your book is stop selling and start advising. Why should people stop selling and start advising, and this is a loaded question, what is the difference between being a nice guy and being the guy that gets accepted into the sales or the prospect's comfort zone so to speak?
Doug: It's interesting. I don't know if you know anything about my background. I'm the son of a guy named Dave Sandler, who created the Sandler Selling System. For me, I go back to a story that he talked about about a woman, this is completely out of the Sandler Sales System, so I do not take credit for knowing the story myself other than just knowing the way that it made me feel, and it's about an old lady that walks into a department store, and in the department stores they used to sell these portable heaters.
She walks up, and she goes into the heating department, and this is a lady probably in her 60s or 70s, and she's not up with technology so she doesn't necessarily check the internet with everything, and she goes in and she's looking for a heater, and the sales guy comes up to her. She says do you guys have heaters that might be able to keep my home warm, and the guy goes off on this tirade of boy do we have heaters, and he goes through all the features and the benefits of these amazing heaters that are there from the top one down to the bottom one, and after about 15 minutes of explaining all the virtues of these amazing heaters he's exhausted probably every bit of specification page in the manuals for those heaters, he says knowing that there can't possibly be any questions at this point says to the old woman do you have any questions, confident that there's no possible way that she has any questions.
She says yeah, I just have one question. She goes does it keep an old lady warm? That's all she wanted. She just wanted to stay warm. What I would tell you is as a part of building the relationships and working through a prospecting system, and whatever system, whether it's invest, inspire, execute or the submarine system from the Sandler Sales training, if you're answering the problem, solving the problem of the person that is directly across from you, you win. That's the only system that you need. I would put all of that other stuff aside, systems, invest, inspire, execute, my nice guy 30, whatever system that you have, put it aside for a moment and just be a human being. The more human that you're going to be the better relationship that you're going to have, the more business that you're going to have, period, the end, that's it. There is no substitute for human relationships.
Mark: Totally agree with you. We get lost in that, though. Sales is such, regardless of what side of the table you're sitting on, it could be sales, it could be procurement, you could be doing NNA transactions, it's we get lost in closing the deal, and I think we really forget that we can be, we're allowed to be human.
Mark: One of the biggest things I try to tell people is your goal is to make sure your customers successful in the long term, and part of that success is making them feel like they're being successful and making them feel human during the process.
Mark: Awesome. A lot of what we do is also learning from failure. We love to learn from selfishly the failure of others, so I'd love to talk about failure a little bit.
Mark: Maybe you could share with us a personal story of sales or negotiation failure that you've had, and what did you learn from that and what would you do differently today?
Doug: Yeah. I can recall, and this is back in the early days of being in business, which is probably in the early 1990s before the internet, it was all about relationships and building them, and we just had the telephone. I don't even think the cell phones were popular back then. I can recall my prospects were doctors, so I can recall anytime that I had I needed to make the best use of my time, so I thought making the best use of my time meant let's just get to the bottom line quickly.
I would always lead with this is how much the products and services, this is the product that I had at the time, it was a computer system that I was selling for their accounts payable, and I said to them this one doctor in particular, listen, I know this is an uncomfortable thing to talk about, but I have a limited amount of time, so could we just talk about money quickly. He was like I don't want to talk about money, it's not necessarily the part that I thought was significant. I can recall being so insistent about wanting to talk about money because I kept thinking this is the part that everybody wants to talk about, they want to know how much it is so that they can figure out if it's something that they want. My baggage was holding me back.
That's the stuff that was in my head, I thought everybody money was the only important thing. I can recall this doctor saying something to me like money is not the thing I want to talk about, I want to talk about if this can fix the problem of our accounts payable and our accounts receivable. If we don't want to talk about that, then I don't want to talk to you about anything. I was just so insistent. I can remember basically making a fool of myself because I kept thinking in my mind why doesn't this guy want to talk about money. It wasn't a part of his baggage, it was a part of my baggage the money thing.
That was a pretty big failure in my life because I realized something not winning or losing a sale, I mean certainly winning or losing a sale is important, but the thing that got me the most was it taught me the most about myself. It's like don't bring my baggage into the prospects, into my prospective customer's brain. It's my baggage, not theirs. Whatever their baggage is, let me hear what that is, but leave my baggage on the platform.
Mark: Yeah. If you were going to give advice to salespeople, procurement people, negotiators in general, what advice would you give, maybe we can tie in that baggage piece, what are the top three things that you would tell people to think about when they're either making a sale or negotiating a deal in general?
Doug: I think the number one thing I would say is be human. That would be important. We've talked about that to a degree now. I would say the second thing you need to look at is perspective. You need to understand the perspective that they are working on, that they're working from. If somebody understands technology, and bits and bytes, and you talk to them in a broad brush creative sense, it's not going to strike the right chord. Just understand that perspective that they are coming from. The other thing that I would probably tell you is shut up and listen. More people want to talk themselves into and out of a sale than need be. If you'd just listen to the person that's across the table from you they're telling you what it's going to take in order to help put that product or service into their inventory. If you're not listening to them, then you're missing out on most of the great opportunity that you have to find out what their problems are and help solve them.
Mark: The most common piece of advice that we get on this show from sales and negotiation experts is shut your mouth and listen. It's so strange that everyone seems to know, like the top successful salespeople, this is what they preach all the time, the top negotiators in procurement, this is what they preach all the time, ask the question, and shut your mouth, and listen, and yet we keep saying it over and over and over again, so clearly it's a major issue.
Doug: Yeah. It's a major issue. Look at it from your perspective from a prospect, when you're a prospect and a salesperson or a negotiator just keeps leaning in and doesn't allow you the opportunity to share your thoughts, how does it make you feel? Again, it makes you feel like what you have to say is not a part of this process, or unimportant. That sucks. That really does. When you do that, you've lost all opportunity to build a relationship with that person, you really have.
Mark: Yeah. You really do. If you were going to give yourself advice, your 30-year-old self let's say for example, advice on sales and negotiations, first of all where were you when you were 30, and what advice would you give yourself?
Doug: Let's see, 30. That was 23 years ago. That was in the '90s, is that right? Yeah, that was in the '90s. I was probably head down, working hard, I just had a new family, I had two kids, '93 and '96 my kids were born, I probably just focused on as much business as I possibly could. What I would tell you is find a balance in your life that is probably more than just work, work, work. It's so important to find that.
I just spent my entire 1990s working, and I think if there was anything that I would probably do differently it would be work, yes, because you need to make a living, but understand that there's got to be some balance in your life so you can actually have a life outside of work because work is only going to take you so far. You need to focus on rewarding yourself and enjoying yourself and getting some promise and hope out of life different than just the dollars that you're going to be putting in the bank as a result of closing a deal. If there's any advice that I could give myself from years ago, it would have probably been one, find balance, two, just make sure I'm learning to take my ego out of the equation, and I don't know it all, just learn to listen more from people that have done a better job and have been doing it more than me.
Those have been the couple of things that have really made it this second career since I've been in the professional speaking and podcasting and writing world, I really do focus very much on finding people that have done it before me. I don't have the same amount of time I had when I was in my 30s, so I'm trying to figure out how to be smart about it, do it faster, and do it without an ego at this point in my life.
Mark: That's fantastic advice. I think here's many times that we get wrapped up in sort of the success agenda, so to speak, where we know that success requires a significant am think of work, so as a result we work, work, work, and then ultimately we forget about everything else in our lives. That's why we want to be successful the vast majority of time, is to have time for the other things.
I mean I'm definitely guilty of this where I spend far too much time focusing on production, and not necessarily enough time focusing on the other areas of my life that give me the joy that I need in my life to be able to be successful in the sales or in the negotiations or in whatever it is that I'm doing.
Mark: That's fantastic advice, really really good.
Mark: All right. We've covered a lot of ground, but there's one more thing that I really want to cover. You cover it in your book where you say failure is a part of success. A lot of people are sort of allergic to failure and they feel like failure is ultimate failure in that once I fail I'm a loser, I'm a deadbeat, how do I get out of this. How should we reframe failure and think about failure differently so it's not necessarily as damaging to our personal psyche?
Doug: I think that the part of the failure that people have a tough time with is that feeling. It's not actually the I can't pay my bills, or it's the I can't believe that they didn't like me, or it's the business that closed its doors. I think people feel like they are afraid of that feeling that you get when you fail, that you're a loser and that you can't accomplish the goals that you have set out. If you just understand that your brain, your head has got to get around your goals, where are you heading, what is the direction that you're going in, what is it that you want to be able to do, I want to speak on 50 stages in this upcoming year, let's say, if that's one of your goals, or I want to be able to move 50 units of this particular product, or whatever, I want to negotiate a higher wage for a price point for the products that I'm selling.
If those are your goals, do whatever you need to do in order to get there, and if you understand that you're going to have missteps along the way the only way that you're going to learn anything, you don't learn anything from success ... Success is great, and it makes you feel good, and that's the reason why we like it because it makes us feel good, if you take that feeling of failure out of your daily thought process when you go through that misstep, and you just start looking at your goals, it's just going to be a matter of time before you get there.
Many people set these unrealistic high, high goals that they can't accomplish ever, no matter what. Put yourself in a position to set some smaller goals, some of these tasks, these activities, the goals that we've set before which is how do you make these habits work of returning your calls, returning your emails, being on time every time, those five things, if you set those as your smaller objectives and your goals and your tasks through the course of your day what you'll find is you will start to slowly but surely tick away at those bigger goals.
Failure is just a part of the plan, it's a part of the process, and if you accept that in as part of your daily activities, you're not going to make every sale. If I look at it and I say for my ten prospects that I have on my prospect list for the next ten days lets say, I'm going to close every one of them, or I'm going to hope to, if you don't expect to lose 8 or 9 of those deals, or 7 or 5, whatever that is that closing rate for you, if you don't expect it you're going to feel bad about it every time, like you don't know where the five are coming from. They will come. They will eventually come. Even if you close none of those, just know that you need to step back, readjust, and keep moving forward and don't let your head trash get in the way because that is unfortunately one of the things I always tell my audience is the biggest obstacle is that six inches between your ears, and it's just your brain.
Oftentimes that will be the thing that will stand in your way most. Your prospects aren't standing in your way. You are standing in your way to success.
Mark: Yeah. There's a concept called self negotiation in the negotiation world where a lot of people go into a sale or a negotiation in general and they've already negotiated with themselves before they even get into the sale, and so they ask for less than they think they're worth oftentimes. That's such a pervasive issue because there's a lot of negative self talk that exists in our heads, right. We go into it thinking they're not going to accept the offer, they're not going to accept the asking price, I should just go in with a lower amount.
Right, and so you've negotiated with yourself before you've even given the other party an opportunity to negotiate with you, and that ultimately does nothing for you because not only have you shot yourself in the foot but you haven't given the other party the opportunity to win because if they wanted to negotiation down you've got no more room. You can't actually even come down from where you were because you're probably at your lowest price to begin with. The other party will walk away going well, I didn't win out of this deal because I wasn't able to save any money. Both parties walk away angry, they both walk away upset because you've got this negative self talk in your head ultimately that's forced you to go in thinking that you're going to get less. That's a big part of failure in negotiation and sales that a lot of people don't think about.
Sales ultimately and negotiation in general is a very mind set focused business. You've got to be in the right mind set to be able to deliver the right results. Understanding that failure is not actually failure, that it's just finding a different way to do something, and now you've tested that theory and it doesn't work, that's probably the best way to approach it.
Doug: Yeah, I agree. I think the biggest problem that we have is ourselves, and if we learn to get out of our own way success will find its way into our lives. We do have a very challenging time finding a way to get out of our own way, and once we do that we are well on our way to success.
Mark: Awesome, yeah. Totally agree with you. Okay, Doug, listen, I think we've covered a huge amount of ground in a very short amount of time.
Doug: Yeah, man. It's been fun.
Mark: It's been awesome, man. I really appreciate you being on. It's super nice to speak to someone that thinks of sales as personal, and being human, and being a good person and a nice guy. Ultimately at the end of the day all that we have is our reputations and the relationships that we build. The approach that you've built with invest, inspire, execute I think is the right approach, and so I truly thank you for that.
Doug: Thank you, and thanks for having me on the show, and thanks for sharing my message. I love it. If anything that I have said is counter how someone is in your community, what I would tell you is take the bits and pieces that work and use those. If you can return your phone calls but the rest of those five steps are impossible for you then don't do them. Just know that those were the things that worked for me, and if they don't work for you then that's okay to. On the other side of it, if you feel like invest, inspire, execute isn't the way for you to go but you found a little bit in the perspective message that I presented to you today, then pull the perceptive part and flush the rest. Whatever part works for you, use it to your advantage.
Mark: Awesome. If people want to find out more about you and what you're doing on an ongoing basis, how can they find you?
Doug: Just reach out to me, DougSandler.com, all my information and contact is all right on the website, DougSandler.com.
Mark: And for those of you who are into podcasting and the podcasting world, Doug's got a great podcast called Nice Guys on Business that he co-hosts with Strickland Bonner, and it's a great show. I'm a fan, I listen to it, so I recommend that people subscribe and listen to that as well.
Doug: Thanks, Mark. Don't listen with small children in the car. We get a little bit crazy with our language.
Mark: The episode that you did with the sex therapist a few weeks ago ...
Doug: Doctor Jane.
Mark: That was great.
Doug: Yeah. We have actually a segment that's coming up, we liked Doctor Jane so much that we're going to have her on reading letters from her patients, so we're going to have a sex segment on the business show. We thought it was good. Hey, who doesn't deal with issues, every part of this world you're dealing with, whether you're in business or not, but we thought it would be a fun segment to add to the show.
Mark: Awesome. Thanks again, Doug. I appreciate it, man, and have a fantastic day.
Doug: Thanks, Mark, I appreciate it.
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