In this episode, we interview Don Klock, a professor of Supply Chain Management at Rutgers Business School. Don has over 30 years of international and domestic experience with major multinational consumer products corporations like Mars and Colgate Palmolive, where he was most recently their Chief Procurement Officer. As you'll hear, he has fantastic advice around the value of planning in negotiation. He’s a legend in the world of procurement and negotiation and it was truly an honor to talk with him.
Mark: Good morning Don, how are you?
Don: Good Mark, how are you doing today?
Mark: Yeah, very well. Thank you. Thank you so much for joining us. We are super excited to have you on the show today. I’ve already introduced you to the listeners. You had what many would consider to be the perfect procurements/negotiation career, culminating a lifetime achievement award with procurement leaders. But I think what most of us are most interested about is how did all start out? What led you to procurement and negotiation as a career of choice?
Don: Yeah, so I’m an engineer by training, a mechanical engineer from a small college Clarkson University in Potsdam, New York, and when I graduated, I started working for a consumer products company as a Project Manager with Gantt charts and all that type of stuff. And I was working in that particular area and I was working on capital equipment for the project and then the next thing I know, they decided to build another plant somewhere else and they said “We need somebody that knows a little bit about engineering and the capital equipment.” So, I moved from being a Project Manager to Capital Equipment and that’s where I started.
And I tell people that the one beauty of going into procurement and capital equipment is that many of these purchases aren’t repetitive. For example, you probably buy a piece of capital equipment. You don’t buy that for another plant maybe five or ten years so you have some relationships but they’re not necessarily on-going relationships. And then what the beauty of that is, from a negotiation standpoint, you can try to negotiate lots of things and even if you make a small mistake really nobody is the wiser and you can correct and do things and think about you’re buying capital equipment over and over and over during the project and you get many, many different experiences of what worked and didn’t work.
So, I think for me, it was really lucky personally that I got to learn early on how to negotiate.
Mark: Yeah. It sounds like capital equipment for a lot of people is a great testing ground because of those different reasons that you mentioned. What about capital equipment makes it such a unique area of negotiation? I mean I guess you’ve got multiple different terms. You’ve got multiple different types of equipment. You’ve got a bunch of different things you can negotiate into it. Is it sort of the variety that leads to being so unique?
Don: Well, I think that, first of all, as I said, you tend to do and not do it again for a number of years but more importantly, you’ve got to get a good price on a piece of capital equipment. And then there are many value-added activities that you can have involved. Maybe you’re adding some specialized equipment and you’re working to get a value there and then just think of, out of that, the equipment is installed, you might have a maintenance agreement, you may have performance agreement. There usually is some sort of warranty closes there involved, as you said, terms and conditions. All these things kind of play under these – they’re very important to the company to get value out of. It’s more than just price.
I think that because you’re involved across the board not just worried about price like a commodity, you’re worried about value and getting the stuff delivered on time into this particular facility and transportation and all that type of stuff.
So, I think you’ll get a lot of different aspects thrown at you that you can help negotiate and you have to partner because you’re not the subject matter expert. You have to partner with your engineering compadres and your stakeholders are there. And so, you learn early on that they’re 50-50 part of the deal because they are the ones that are really specifying the equipment and they know what needs to go into that plant. They need to know how that stuff operates long-term so it’s a good example where sometimes people forget so you’ve got to have the stakeholders in the boat.
Mark: Right. Yeah. I mean in previous podcast that I did was actually with Greg Tennyson and Greg was talking about how important it is to get stakeholder buy-in and making sure that you’re listening to the needs of the business and he said listening is probably what he considers to be one of the most important negotiation skills of all. What would you consider to be one of the most important negotiation skills?
Don: Well, certainly, is in the area of indirects, is probably the best example where your stakeholders control the budget. Let’s say in time if you’re working let’s say in capital equipment with engineering, you’re all in the same group, right? You’re all in supply chain or whatever the manufacturing or whatever they call it these days. So, you’re kind on the same team, you’re kind of work together but I think one of the key things is that when you’re working with indirects particularly, you’ve got to really learn how to listen to your stakeholders and more importantly, what I think is important, is they don’t really care that much about price, right?
Don: Yes, they do but their biggest concern unfortunately is that they’re worried about if you save the money, their budget is going to get cut. So, it’s a very delicate skill to convince them that we’re going to work together here and create value for the company. It may or may not be able to control who cuts the budget and when but at least we can get some good value and we’re certainly not here to give less service, slow delivery and bad products, right?
Don: So, I think it’s coming back to this listening. It’s more about you have to determine who the key stakeholders are and you’ve got to sell them that this is the right thing for the company. It put your sales hat on and be able to convince them if they want to do this. Just a side note which is one of the things we used to teach when I was at Colgate is we used to say when you’re going after the indirects, never open up the conversation about reducing cost or price. We always talk about it. No, because that’s what they’re worried about, right?
Mark: Yeah, absolutely.
Don: So, what you want to do is you want to say “Hey, how things are going? I know a little bit about your categorized study here and I know you use 170 suppliers and I think we could probably a lot less and have you had any problems?” “You have some quality problems and you have some delivery problems.” “Let’s work together to find the right mix of suppliers that really can help you grow the business.” If you’re talking to a marketing type of person.
And I think by having the conversation, it starts to build some trust with the stakeholders thinking that you’re not just doing it and the truth to the matter is, in many of these things, when you do work with the stakeholders, every time even though you don’t want to admit it, you save money. That doesn’t have to be brought up in the very beginning.
Mark: Exactly. No, I totally agree with you. So, Don, working in the consumer products industry with companies like Mars and Colgate, that must have led to some fairly unique experiences. What makes supply chain or procurement in the consumer products industry different from other industries?
Don: Well, I think the first thing is just that for a long period of time, they’ve had direct materials particularly for their packaging and raw materials, their ingredients or their chemicals, whatever they’re doing. But those have been there for a long time and they’ve always had procurement people at least in my lifetime involved. And I would say that in the ‘80s, companies started to wake up and look on the indirect side, which turned out to be a huge opportunity where people never thought it would be type of savings that you would have.
So, I think by having both the direct and indirects is different in the consumer products company than let’s say at service business that’s almost all indirects. I think the other thing that’s occurred, and this is somewhat true for other segments of industry, is since it’s been around for a long time, they had done a fair amount of outsourcing which procurement has got involved in, A lot of contract packaging which you’re outsourcing your manufacturing. And they had basically done this. I’m not saying they will be leaders but they’ve been doing this for a number of years where you could create value for the company.
And I know on the case of, Mars as an example just one example, they made a decision early on that’s to own any warehouses and trucks and ever since they ever started, they just didn’t believe in having those assets. So, we outsource all over. When I worked on the logistics there, we outsourced all the warehouse and trucks and that probably that particular time early on anyway was probably the first time that people have thought about that. A lot of people are still buying trucks, having drivers and owning warehouses and those types of things.
So, I think it’s not to say that the bleeding edge but I do think they were involved early on in a lot of these things which created, again, a lot of opportunities to negotiate various goods and services and directs and indirects.
Mark: Right. You mentioned something about directs and how the consumer industry involved or their directs been has been pretty well-established. How does that affect your negotiations with direct suppliers?
Don: Well, I would say in most of these companies and there are always new suppliers that come up because they’ve been at it for fairly long time. There are some long-term relationships there. It doesn’t mean there aren’t other opportunities. I’ll come back to that in a minute, but having said, I think they would say many of these the very strategic and the leverage side, if you look at the strategic matrix, they’ve been around and then going after these things for a long time.
And what we did at Colgate is we got a lot of work in costing and that type of stuff, and over time, we’re able to reduced our costs and time wastes to create value in those direct material. So, even though maybe some of the similar suppliers, we found new ways to reduce costs and particularly get some value out of it. In addition to that, may systems get better and better and better. As an example is now that most every consumer products probably a lot of the companies have pretty sophisticated established ERP systems and the enterprise resource planning systems that they can gather data and it’s fairly easy today. So, now they’ve got better data so if somebody says to you in a consumer products company, “I buy this stuff in the United States, I wonder what I buy globally.” And I can tell you, we’ve got a lot of that work in Colgate. We are always surprised.
I mean I know people on the call probably at some expansions, when you start looking globally if I found out that you paid one price in Malaysia and a different price in Thailand and a different price in China which is a different price in United States, all from the same supplier, right?
Don: And when you found that out you’ll say, we’ve got to consolidate this and have the global price. Let’s say in the ‘90s it’s still where opportunities were still out there.
Mark: Yeah, I think spend consolidation is a huge area of opportunity for global companies like that. An access to that data, as you mentioned, seems to be the competitive edge. You know what I mean? The better access to data that you have, the better decisions you’re going to be able to make.
Don: Correct and I think that has improved because many companies had legacy systems that it was hard to gather up the data. I mean, as you’re well aware, 70% of the Fortune 500 Companies now, they do an SAP or Oracle. So, they got the capabilities when they run it globally to be able to roll this data much more easier than they did 20 years ago.
Mark: Right. Yeah exactly. I think we learn as much in negotiations from our failures as we do from our successes. And one of the questions that I’d like to ask Supply Chain Executives and procurement or Negotiation Executives is what is been your largest or biggest negotiation failure? What happened and what did you learn from it?
Don: I think that even early on I had taken some negotiation courses and things to do and one of the things I always believe in very large important strategic negotiations is you’ve got to get the team together particularly if it’s a cross-functional team and you’ve got to be able to have a role play like you’re going to get ready for those negotiation. They’re like “I don’t need to do that.” “No, you do because you’ve got to think about it.” I always tell the story that we are buying some very sophisticated equipment when I was at Mars, that was being brought out of Switzerland and what we told the suppliers “You give us the best equipment” but we added some high-technology equipment to be able to control moisture and temperature. We didn’t want him to know that we knew how to do that so we said we just buy the best equipment and of course the equipment suppliers said “Yeah, I can do that.” We knew that his answer to that problem wasn’t as good as ours so we kept it very confidential.
Don: And so a good story is that we have this role play and of course this is a piece of capital equipment again and it’s high-technology and we have the engineer in the room. We knew he liked to talk so we said “You know, John, you’ve got to really be quite about this. You’re coming in. We’re having a big negotiation here and we want you to be very quiet about this and we’ve got to keep it confidential because we believe it’s our intellectual property, something that we have and nobody else has.” And sure enough Mark, as soon as we started the meeting, this engineer – we had role played – we decided that’s what we’re going to do. He started telling everybody about what he did to the equipment to make it world-class and giving away all this technology. I thought I was going to jump out of the window.
I basically had to halt the practice and say sorry we’re going to have a meeting. I draw him outside the meeting and I kind of read it. I don’t know.
Even in the best laid plans, you can do whatever you can but things happen you probably don’t realize and it was a mistake and they found out what we were doing. I mean they didn’t have the details. They didn’t know exactly how we’re doing but they should not tell them anything. And so in the case, I’m sure they were laughing all the way home but we gave up the keys of the car so to speak.
Mark: Right. Yeah, I hear you. What did you learn from that? I mean best laid plans sometimes go south and you have to adapt on the fly, what do you do in that kind of situation?
Don: I just have to halt the meeting. It was kind of awkward and I said we just need to take a quick break here. I pull on the side of the meeting and tell him to stop doing it and he just blew it off because he has the big ego because he was so smart, but that’s about all you can do, right?
Don: But the good news is I stopped him and he could maybe went on for an hour or maybe he was walking around the plant or something. I can’t remember if the spiral was going with us, he would have told them more. So, I think he got the point but he did give away some things. And I remember, in our training because this is a high-technology plant, we actually had training which have it all what World War II motto “Loose Lips Sink Ships” and we kept signs in this area and not to say that he let him but the point would be is that we try to make the point that we’re trying to keep this technology secret because we thought it was a real competitive advantage. So, it’s not a lot of what you can do and again, it’s only one piece of equipment and who knows what they learned from it.
But certainly, they are going to sell another piece of equipment to another confectionary company. They might be able to use that competitive advantage that they learned from it and put it into their equipments.
Mark: Yeah. All very good points to heed for sure. So, now you teach negotiation, both as a professor at Rutgers and as a private trainer for The Negotiation Institute. What are some of the most common errors or areas for improvement that you see with people’s negotiations?
Don: Yeah, the first one I’d say is the companies that do this well and have a consistent program really deserves kudos. And what I see happening particularly during the recession is a lot of companies stop training in general of which negotiation was actually – they stopped training negotiations. And I guess I would say that of all the things you could teach in procurement, negotiation should be taught because it’s an easy skill for people to learn and be able to pick up and practice. So, the number one thing I’d say is that you’ve got to be able to have continuous training.
I would contend that negotiation, sure if you’re teaching seven-step process in strategic procurement is certainly going to help you but those are long-term. Negotiation, you can walk out of the room, take five ideas, implement them and then you can save money and get pay back on it.
So, number 1 is I think it’s important to have negotiation training even if you have cancel part of the training but try to let negotiation in. The second thing is that some of these large corporations that I’ve worked for are starting to head towards online training for negotiations and that’s where the world is going. There’s a lot of online training, and I think there are places to do it. Some do a lot of online training, but I think negotiation is not one of those. I think you need to have people practice it face-to-face. You can’t do that online.
Don: So, when people asked us to do online training, all we can do is just give them the material and I expect that the retention of that is probably very small compared to being in class face-to-face practicing this. The other advantage you have in class is generally you have some people that have been around for a while and yes some younger people and I always find that the older people want to help the younger people to be better negotiators. And all that doesn’t occur when you do online.
So, I don’t have a problem with online in general, I’ve done a lot of it. I have a real problem in teaching negotiation online and thinking they’re going to get value out of it. So, those are probably two things.
And I think the last thing is that there are no real secrets and there’s nobody like saying I’ve got a new way to negotiate. This stuff has been around for quite some time. You can read many, many books on it. So, all these are tried and true and what amazes me is many times I’ll go in to field in a large corporation and I’ll start doing this stuff and these ideas and tactics and fact-based negotiation; they’ve been around for a long time. And many people, because the company hasn’t supported it, have never seen those ever.
So, even if you’re not going to pay for the training, where is the people in the department helping the other people learn some of these skills.
Don: The people that have been around for a while – so, certainly they can’t pay for negotiation training, do it yourselves in procurement. The material is there. It’s not like we in universities keep everything secret, you know. It’s very well-known.
Mark: That’s right, exactly. I tried to tell someone that the other day. This stuff has been around since the beginning of time, since the first trade ever happened, that’s when negotiation started. So, listen you probably travelled extensively in your role with The Negotiation Institute and in other positions and you’ve likely had to do training in other cultures and negotiate with people from other cultures. What do you think negotiations or people who are negotiating with other cultures should learn about that culture before going in or do you think it’s somehow the same as negotiating within North America? What are some of the key areas you think people need to pay attention to?
Don: No, I don’t think it’s the same and I think that one of the problems we have being US-based, we tend to say “Well it must be the same everywhere.” It’s very different in Asia for example than it is in the United States. So, the first thing you can do, I can’t remember the site. You can maybe plug it in later, but there are these websites where you can learn about their culture and what they do and what you should expect to do. So, that’s an easy thing to do before you go.
I find that one thing that happens when you’re particularly overseas, Asia, China wherever you are, there’s many times that the owner of the business doesn’t speak a word of English but he has sent his young son or daughter to Harvard and they speak perfect English. And the son or daughter many times is in medium to large corporations in China or parts of Asia. They either have another person that is negotiating and you don’t know because the owner doesn’t speak English, it has to be translated so a couple of things; Number 1, you’ve got to think about if it’s really important, you might want to bring a translator that works for you and that in itself is a cumbersome thing. But at a very minimum, one of the tips that we used to do when I run an international procurement office in China for many years, and what we used to do is that we would negotiate it whoever it is that can spoke English and we would always stay over at least an extra day and then at night, myself or somebody who is working for me, would actually write the minutes up and we’ll see what we agreed and then we would give it to our contact and have them make sure they understand it and we would just all agree before we left.
Because what we found was is that sometimes what would happen is that we thought we had an agreement and we go leave and we come back and there’s something not agreed and all of a sudden we’re back and do it again. That was not done purposely. It’s all about it gets lost in translation. So at least if you have the written thing with people initials in it at least you can say well, we agreed to this on the 17th of whatever and we all initialed it, remember. “Oh, yes. Well actually we misunderstood.” “No, you didn’t misunderstand. This is what it says. We agreed to this.” So, that’s I think something you can do.
And as you’re well-aware in some cultures they try to like in Japan for example, they’ll want to wait for you the last minute to negotiate, just book extra days at the end of your trip and you realize it may take an extra day but eventually you’re going to get to a negotiation table with these people. Those are good examples.
Mark: Yeah really good examples. I think it’s super important for people to understand that. And I think us living in North America, we had a tendency to think that everyone negotiates the same way. I think it’s super important to get a good understanding of the culture that you’re negotiating with prior to negotiating with people from that culture because how you handover a business card, how you shake someone’s hand, how you introduce someone – all of that can actually make or break a negotiation. And so knowing that going in, I think, is super, super important.
Don: Yeah, one thing I’d add just occurred to me when you are talking is the fellow that ran my international procurement office was a very successful Latin-American individual but he was an A-type personality. And we realized early on that he was not culturally getting this because he came from the position of strength just say you don’t like doing this and that’s it and things would fall apart – so simple things. Two things we did; number 1, we kind of sent him to school with somebody that was working on soft skills and two things that he did. Number 1, we improved his listening skills, which you brought up earlier, and the second thing was paraphrasing. Simple thing, right? And so particularly he’s as good anyway in running a negotiation but if you’re overseas is that slow down, listen to what the other party is saying and then paraphrase it back to them and say “I think I heard what you said. This is what we kind of agree on, is that true or not true?” And he did that and he basically increased his performance probably 300%. Those two things.
Mark: Wow! Incredible. Those are great tips. So, I mean talking about that a little bit, what would your philosophy on negotiation be? Do you believe in win-win negotiations? Do you believe that they’re possible or do you think that primarily negotiations are win-lose?
Don: No, I think the days of win-lose are over. There are certain cases where you’re only looking at a price and you don’t care about the relationship. That’s not really win-lose. That’s just getting the lowest possible price. Auctions are like that. They don’t negotiate. They just get a price and move on. It’s a commodity, who cares. You’ve got six suppliers, you can do it but I do think this idea of win-win, it’s been around to Harvard and other things. Everybody realizes that now and it’s particularly important in the current environment is during recession, many people wrangled out a lot of costs cut out of suppliers because people were hurting for business and they want to lock down business. And now it’s obviously turned for the last couple of years, and so what’s happening is that the purchasing people that were heroes all of a sudden, costs are starting to creep up and the management saying “What happened?” Although they know what happened, right? The economy got better.
But you said, you now have to come back and say how we’re going to create value and you do that through win-win. You’ve got to really look at other things and I think the one thing I’d say about procurement people in general and this probably might make some people on a podcast is that even on the great value, we’re not good at selling it to the corporation that we created value.
We got some new technology here and they say put a dollar sign on it. We improve the speed of market by a month-and-a-half by negotiating to these people and getting something quicker and that thereby we can launch our products quicker. We’re not particularly good at that. We really need to remind the organization that we can do a lot more. Bringing innovative suppliers in, in negotiating and get some new products that will help our products type of thing.
So, I think we got to do a better job particularly in the current environment. The costs are important, they’re always going to be, but we create value for the corporation and here are six things that we did today for you.
Mark: Good point. I find negotiations people or procurement people seem to be very data-driven, very cold, very process-driven, not the greatest salespeople like you mentioned. So, I think it’s super important to be able to communicate the value that procurement or supply chain provides to the organization because otherwise no one is ever going to know. And that may actually segway quite nicely into my next question for you. What is the one thing that professional negotiators can do to move the discipline of negotiation forward?
Don: Certainly, I think for the overall discipline is I always say there is one we teach but again people don’t always do. About 70% of your time when you’re doing strategic sourcing and you’re working to negotiate, 70% of your time should be in planning.
Don: That’s why we have this idea that we get into a smoke-filled room, jokingly we don’t have smoke-filled rooms anymore. Smoke-filled room, air-conditioning blowing on the back of the suppliers and now we’re going to come away with a huge percent because he’s going to give in and be a win-lose. I think what we need to do is stand back and say “We really need to do the best job planning.” And I mean everything from fact-based negotiation to the costing if that’s applicable, what our tactics is going to be, what’s the style, what type of team we’re going to put together. I mean talk to the supplier. Who is going to set, where, body language, all the stuff – we need to do that upfront and I think while everybody says they do that, my experience when I talk to people they go, “That’s interesting”. Well, that’s probably because you don’t take the time to do 70% of planning.” And I think that’s the one thing I think people could do better is be much more better upfront.
So, when they walk in the room, they’ve got to figure out what they need to do to have a win-win type of negotiation and they also have contingency plans and all that other stuff that we teach, in writing so they know where they’re heading. And I think people get lazy and they just think “The supply is coming at 10 o’clock tomorrow morning, let’s go negotiate.” I think that’s probably a piece of advice I would do.
Mark: Yeah, I 100% agree with you. I mean there seems to be this prevailing logic that somehow negotiation is a gunslingers paradise but they just go and shoot and ask questions later and it’s not that way at all. Negotiations can be and should be logical, formulaic and strategic. And I think as much preparation as you can do to put in upfront lead to the success that you have later on. I totally, totally agree with you. Yeah, great point.
Don: I just want to say one more thing and I say this when I’m in front of people in business teaching them is that you have to remember that 30 years ago procurement had some training let’s say or read the book, “Art of Negotiating” or something so they knew a little bit about this tactics, but the truth to the matter is, is that now that salespeople are have gone this role but frankly I teach negotiation to salespeople.
Mark: That’s right.
Don: So, they’re equally equipped. So, if you don’t do that planning, you’re going to be really in trouble because they might have done the planning and at least going in, you want to realize that they’re equally skilled. Many large suppliers now have the same training. They know everything. Like I said, there are no secrets in this. There are dozens of books that are written and there are videos and there are other things that you can look at.
So, they know what you know. If you don’t do it, you’re going to be at huge disadvantage.
Mark: Yeah and you know the vast majority of the training that I do is actually to salespeople who want to understand procurement a lot better. So, they’re definitely doing the training.
Mark: Yeah, exactly. So, if you could give any advice to your 30-year-old self, what would that advice be on negotiation and where were you when you were 30?
Don: So, I was in manufacturing plants early in my career like the first 15 years in manufacturing. So, what I would say to people, and this would be just procurement/negotiation is people need to be – I mean I’m unusual because I moved 13 times in my business career and I took every opportunity that was thrown at me and this is the way I am. I’m not saying that’s for everybody, but early in your career, get up and take some risks and go move to other parts of the United States or hopefully, if you can, overseas early on in your career to get experiences that you can use.
If you can stay with one company in one slot and you’re 30, that’s not the right thing to do. So, when I was 30, I was probably had been in three or four manufacturing plants at that stage and back then, many of the stuffs was decentralized procurement so I had a lot of experiences that’s more than just the capital equipment that was bought centrally but I was in multiple plants and we had to negotiate local corrugated agreements. We had negotiated lease truck agreements, things that were done very locally and so I got a lot of experience early on in manufacturing and you also learn about manufacturing which is very important because then you start to understand how things are made. Even though it might be food type of product, it’s certainly applicable many times the way things are made by your suppliers.
I think that I would recommend if I said anything early in your career, take some moves, and I know it will be hard. What I tell young people, they call me up and say “I’ve got a potential opportunity to move from Jersey to Indiana but I don’t know if I want to move.” And I said “Why?” “Well, you know, I have family here and friends here.” “That’s why they invented the airplanes for. What you do is you go to another state and it’s unbelievable we have airplanes that fly back to Jersey, right?”
Don: I mean it’s not that hard, right?
Mark: I love it.
Don: If you do that early on, and I had a couple of students that did it, they have come back and said “You’re right, I learned a lot about it.” Even in another state and another culture and maybe another corporate headquarters versus a plant. They’ve learned a lot and they can bring all that to the negotiation – things that they’ve learned in different things versus just being stayed in one area at one location.
Mark: You’re absolutely right. I mean having the different experiences only adds to your ability to negotiate, your ability to make a good deal and I think that a lot of people pass up experience for the excuses. I’m not trying to minimize family in any kind of way that for excuses of staying with family because you’re right. I mean now with technology, we’ve got Skype. You’ve got stuff that you can do on your phone. You can just jump on an airplane and go, I mean especially if you’re just on a train route. I mean you just hop on the train and come down and see someone. So, it makes it a lot easier for sure.
I think what you’ve given us today Don is, in fact, I know what you’ve given us today is fantastic and incredible information. And for a lot of our listeners, hearing someone like you give advice on negotiation and procurement is certainly a treat. I mean you’ve had such a storied career and you ranked very highly to be one of the leading minds in negotiation and procurement.
So, I just want to thank you so much for your time today. I know you’re a busy guy so sparing up some time for me and our listeners has been truly a treat. If people wanted to learn more about you and find out what you’re up to, is there any way that they can find out more?
Don: The easiest way to find me is find me on LinkedIn, Don Klock, and as I tell people, I threw my address book years ago. If you want to get me, get me on LinkedIn. That’s the easiest way. They also, if they do want, can contact me at Rutgers Business School but easier to get me on LinkedIn.
Mark: Perfect. Awesome! Well, thank you so much Don. I really appreciate your time today. Looking forward to doing this again in the future sometime. Have a wonderful day.
Don: Okay, thank you Mark.
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